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Meath Forum

New Meath Manager

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Replying To Thejoeshow:  "Like it or not Meath we're never a D1 side at any stage in the last ten years before Andy. Meath were never nearly as fit in the last ten years and Andy was not blessed with the forwards or talent others had before him. While we won Vs lesser counties to get there other managers lost to those lesser teams. Go back and watch Meath under mod or Banty near the end and you'll see we came on, not enough and it regressed but any manager coming in will see staying in D2 the minimum and D1 a success and all Ireland series another success. Under previous managers we ended up in D3. Andy went stale and it went backwards but that was after it progressed initially. If we deem his entire reign a failure or he didn't give his best, who in their right mind would take it"
Joe i think there's a couple of things in here and you're making good points. Now in no way am i saying you're wrong or that Andy's reign was unsuccessful but i think it unwound quickly due to a number of factors, not all Andy's fault but some of it was.

I agree we weren't a division one side, but what disappointed me about Andy's chat on OTB was they seemed to realise quickly they weren't at that standard in 2020 and they didn't seem to want to do anything about it. It seemed a bit defeatist in how he spoke about us lacking depth and a squad. Now i accept look he was fair in his assessment but surely that feeling filtered into the players attitudes. What i found weird was he contradicted himself and said their stated aim was to win Leinster. How can we not be a Division 1 team but expect to win Leinster with the most dominant team in history of Gaelic football playing in that competition. It just didn't add up.

On forwards, yes we might not have had the same quality of forwards that Eamonn O'brien had at his disposal but both MOD and Andy packed their squads with lads who could play in the half back/ forward lines. Andy didn't really select players who could be lethal inside forwards (Lenihan, Aaron Lynch) etc and some those dangerous inside forwards were jettisoned for workers and he often played with 1 or no inside forwards. Playing that style of game means you're never going to see the quality of inside forwards like Bray * 2, Ward, o'Rourke, Farrell, Sheridan etc flourish. When you have 10-12 forwards who all essentially do the same thing there's nothing to change up a game and get you goals from nothing. I accept we might not have the quality of those guys in the squad but we'll not know playing the game we were.

On who those previous managers and who they lost to
Banty /b]
2011 - Leinster Semi - Kildare *2 who got to the 1/4 finals
2012 - Leinster Final - Dublin and Laois who got 1/2 and 1/4 finals respectively

MOD
2013 - Leinster Final - Dublin and Tyrone who won and got to 1/2 semi finals
2014 - Leinster Final - Dublin and Armagh who got to the 1/2 and 1/4 finals respectively
2015 - Leinster Semi Final - Westmeath and Tyrone who got to round 4 and the 1/2 finals
2016 - Leinster Semi Final - Dublin and Derry who won and got to round 4

Andy
2017 - Leinster Semi Final - Kildare and Donegal who both got to round 4
2018 - Leinster quarter final - Longford and Tyrone who got to round 2 and all ireland final
2019 - Leinster Final - Dublin and super 8's - who won
2020 - Leinster Final - Dublin who won
2021 - Leinster Final - Dublin who got to the semi finals
2022 - Leinster Semi Final - Dublin and Clare who are both in 1/4 at worst

The worst defeat in there belong to Andy by some distance. MOD was knocked out by Dublin 3 times with them wining 2 all irelands.

As you say the next person in needs to stabilise initially and stay in division 2 first and foremost and build a panel of depth to hopefully get into division one and stay there.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 2000 - 23/06/2022 13:13:44    2427041

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Replying To nobull456:  "That "very small handful of experienced managers available at present" i suggest might see the Meath job as a difficult gig. They may be in a position to choose their gig,and that handful .could become very small indeed. I am NOT saying experience doesnt matter... of course it does Its like horse racing the course and distance winners dont always win. Ideally experience with attitude is whats needed. Jim Gavin at the start had little experience but he certainly had attitude. Admittedly he was supported by a top class visionary county board. You may have misread me as i am totally in support of approaching the top guys to see if they will buy in to the plan to take us from here. Maybe im wrong but in fishing terms i dont expect much "bite" on that one ."
Difficult to see any top class manager taking on the job, unless there is a good money on the table, where will it come from? Andy in his own words received no payment, so money will have to be found. Outside man will also look at our CB which seems to be split, going on what happened last year, add in previous manager back in the media once again, he had his say a few weeks ago ( at this stage abuse has been condemed and rightly so, also good to highlight mental health issues) however still putting a spin on why some wanted change. Time to move on, had his chance, done what he thought was right, but did not work out. Will the top men be willing to turn a blind eye to our internal problems and if money does that, is that the man we want. Spotlight needs to be on the future of Meath football anything else is unwanted and unhelpful distraction.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2257 - 23/06/2022 14:05:00    2427054

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Replying To brian:  "Joe i think there's a couple of things in here and you're making good points. Now in no way am i saying you're wrong or that Andy's reign was unsuccessful but i think it unwound quickly due to a number of factors, not all Andy's fault but some of it was.

I agree we weren't a division one side, but what disappointed me about Andy's chat on OTB was they seemed to realise quickly they weren't at that standard in 2020 and they didn't seem to want to do anything about it. It seemed a bit defeatist in how he spoke about us lacking depth and a squad. Now i accept look he was fair in his assessment but surely that feeling filtered into the players attitudes. What i found weird was he contradicted himself and said their stated aim was to win Leinster. How can we not be a Division 1 team but expect to win Leinster with the most dominant team in history of Gaelic football playing in that competition. It just didn't add up.

On forwards, yes we might not have had the same quality of forwards that Eamonn O'brien had at his disposal but both MOD and Andy packed their squads with lads who could play in the half back/ forward lines. Andy didn't really select players who could be lethal inside forwards (Lenihan, Aaron Lynch) etc and some those dangerous inside forwards were jettisoned for workers and he often played with 1 or no inside forwards. Playing that style of game means you're never going to see the quality of inside forwards like Bray * 2, Ward, o'Rourke, Farrell, Sheridan etc flourish. When you have 10-12 forwards who all essentially do the same thing there's nothing to change up a game and get you goals from nothing. I accept we might not have the quality of those guys in the squad but we'll not know playing the game we were.

On who those previous managers and who they lost to
Banty /b

2011 - Leinster Semi - Kildare *2 who got to the 1/4 finals
2012 - Leinster Final - Dublin and Laois who got 1/2 and 1/4 finals respectively

MOD
2013 - Leinster Final - Dublin and Tyrone who won and got to 1/2 semi finals
2014 - Leinster Final - Dublin and Armagh who got to the 1/2 and 1/4 finals respectively
2015 - Leinster Semi Final - Westmeath and Tyrone who got to round 4 and the 1/2 finals
2016 - Leinster Semi Final - Dublin and Derry who won and got to round 4

Andy
2017 - Leinster Semi Final - Kildare and Donegal who both got to round 4
2018 - Leinster quarter final - Longford and Tyrone who got to round 2 and all ireland final
2019 - Leinster Final - Dublin and super 8's - who won
2020 - Leinster Final - Dublin who won
2021 - Leinster Final - Dublin who got to the semi finals
2022 - Leinster Semi Final - Dublin and Clare who are both in 1/4 at worst

The worst defeat in there belong to Andy by some distance. MOD was knocked out by Dublin 3 times with them wining 2 all irelands.

As you say the next person in needs to stabilise initially and stay in division 2 first and foremost and build a panel of depth to hopefully get into division one and stay there."]I don't think Andy's aim to win Leinster and the league standing is necessarily at odds, Meath traditionally never focused on the league and plenty of sides from D2 and 3 recently have won provincial. Meath are more likely to build up a run of wins in D2 which he saw as a habit. I think that's fair.

Lenihan should have gotten a chance but he has under previous and never got near the levels of Joe or bray or ward. Aaron lynch is young and plays club at intermediate I don't think that's a stick to beat Andy with Brian.

The worst performance I have seen was that defeat to Westmeath under mod Brian. And some of the performances were dire towards the end. While you can look at the defeats Meath also beat Kildare under Andy which wasn't the case under others. You can't judge off one off defeats to compare, watch back the wins and losses under both and you will see the difference, Banty in particular was stacked with better talent and got relegated to D3, that is the worst of them.

Longford was a bad loss but then then lost in qualifiers to Tyrone very unluckily and same with Donegal the year before which was won with the last kick of the ball.

Not debating Andy owns the worst loss but that in itself doesn't tell the story of the standards of the sides.

Thejoeshow (Meath) - Posts: 687 - 23/06/2022 14:22:19    2427065

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Great points again Joe and i agree with you on the points you make. As i said think we're two sides of the same coin. I think in the last 15 to 20 years teams in division 1 or getting promoted from division 2 in the same year traditionally make the all ireland finals So i think getting to Division 1 and staying at that level helps with sustained summer success. For me one comment contradicted the other, but as you rightly say he did make the point that winning and losing can become a habit so we were better in division 2 winning games and having the habit of winning rather than bouncing between divisions every year.

I"m not trying to beat Andy with a stick re Lenihan and Lynch, more make the point both are inside forwards and under Andy we've tended to play 4-5 half forwards and one small man inside (joey/banty etc) and that every forward was of a similar style, and we'd nothing different in terms of game changers. You're right that Lenihan we never saw the best of in a Meath jersey, and i think as you're rightly saying we'd 3-4 of those players together previously which was a pick your poison, ignore one and they could take you assunder.

I think the worst result rightly was Westmeath but i think at times under Andy we were so flat and lethargic it was as bad and worse than some of MOD's stuff. And you're right MOD had some terrible games too. They almost bowed down to Dublin at times and we've never gotten close since. TBF to Banty he did beat Kildare too in 2012 but the die had already been cast and he was out the door regardless. MOD came in and almost straight away jettisoned a lot of those players and we've not recovered since. I remember meeting John Evans in 2013 and discussing some of what happened after the league in 2012 and it was grim listening.

Anyways lets look towards the next person in the door and hopefully they can try and deal with these legacy issues. If they can stabalise and show signs of growth rather than boom bust i'd be happy.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 2000 - 23/06/2022 14:45:10    2427074

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Replying To seadog54:  "Difficult to see any top class manager taking on the job, unless there is a good money on the table, where will it come from? Andy in his own words received no payment, so money will have to be found. Outside man will also look at our CB which seems to be split, going on what happened last year, add in previous manager back in the media once again, he had his say a few weeks ago ( at this stage abuse has been condemed and rightly so, also good to highlight mental health issues) however still putting a spin on why some wanted change. Time to move on, had his chance, done what he thought was right, but did not work out. Will the top men be willing to turn a blind eye to our internal problems and if money does that, is that the man we want. Spotlight needs to be on the future of Meath football anything else is unwanted and unhelpful distraction."
The only internal name that has come through yet is Bernard Flynn. Would Bernard do the job for no payment ?

kingofclubs (Meath) - Posts: 350 - 23/06/2022 14:55:21    2427076

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Replying To kingofclubs:  "The only internal name that has come through yet is Bernard Flynn. Would Bernard do the job for no payment ?"
As they are not meant to be paid, not is any intercounty manager.

Thejoeshow (Meath) - Posts: 687 - 23/06/2022 15:05:26    2427080

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Replying To brian:  "Great points again Joe and i agree with you on the points you make. As i said think we're two sides of the same coin. I think in the last 15 to 20 years teams in division 1 or getting promoted from division 2 in the same year traditionally make the all ireland finals So i think getting to Division 1 and staying at that level helps with sustained summer success. For me one comment contradicted the other, but as you rightly say he did make the point that winning and losing can become a habit so we were better in division 2 winning games and having the habit of winning rather than bouncing between divisions every year.

I"m not trying to beat Andy with a stick re Lenihan and Lynch, more make the point both are inside forwards and under Andy we've tended to play 4-5 half forwards and one small man inside (joey/banty etc) and that every forward was of a similar style, and we'd nothing different in terms of game changers. You're right that Lenihan we never saw the best of in a Meath jersey, and i think as you're rightly saying we'd 3-4 of those players together previously which was a pick your poison, ignore one and they could take you assunder.

I think the worst result rightly was Westmeath but i think at times under Andy we were so flat and lethargic it was as bad and worse than some of MOD's stuff. And you're right MOD had some terrible games too. They almost bowed down to Dublin at times and we've never gotten close since. TBF to Banty he did beat Kildare too in 2012 but the die had already been cast and he was out the door regardless. MOD came in and almost straight away jettisoned a lot of those players and we've not recovered since. I remember meeting John Evans in 2013 and discussing some of what happened after the league in 2012 and it was grim listening.

Anyways lets look towards the next person in the door and hopefully they can try and deal with these legacy issues. If they can stabalise and show signs of growth rather than boom bust i'd be happy."
Agree with all that Brian, and I haven't long said lenihan would be in my 15 given he is a natural inside forward and hopefully he does come back in. We need size in our inside line, watching the all Ireland series and even tailteann cup makes you realise we just lack that bit of size since Newman left. I won't go back to my points around Joey and Banty but I don't think it works these days.

Last year Vs Dublin in the second half was the first Meath side in ages who stood up to Dublin (and limiting them to 0-5 first half in Andy's year after promotion to D1) were sadly the most success we have had. We also performed better in league vs Dublin.

Biggest sign of growth for me would be beating the bottom half counties in D2 with some comfort on a regular basis, at least move us out of that bracket.

Thejoeshow (Meath) - Posts: 687 - 23/06/2022 15:19:09    2427088

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Replying To Thejoeshow:  "Agree with all that Brian, and I haven't long said lenihan would be in my 15 given he is a natural inside forward and hopefully he does come back in. We need size in our inside line, watching the all Ireland series and even tailteann cup makes you realise we just lack that bit of size since Newman left. I won't go back to my points around Joey and Banty but I don't think it works these days.

Last year Vs Dublin in the second half was the first Meath side in ages who stood up to Dublin (and limiting them to 0-5 first half in Andy's year after promotion to D1) were sadly the most success we have had. We also performed better in league vs Dublin.

Biggest sign of growth for me would be beating the bottom half counties in D2 with some comfort on a regular basis, at least move us out of that bracket."
Again great points Joe, might be too late for Donal, is he over 30 now? But you're dead right you need a couple of big lads inside. Morris and Walsh would seem to be the guys for me, maybe Frayne and Lynch could be added into the mix, possibly Luke Mitchell too if he has a good championship campaign. And those players need to be left close to goal, no coming back out the pitch, stay close to goal, that ties up at least 4 player's in the keeper, their markers and 1 extra defender.

Yeah if we could get to that stage of beating the 4 teams in the bottom four places in the league then you're in the promotion hunt every year.Next years league has Dublin, Derry, Kildare, Meath, Clare, Cork , Limerick and Louth. If this current bunch of players has anything about itself they would all be looking to beat those later 4 teams. The other 3 teams would be shots to nothing for me, win any of them, well and good but if not then at least be competitive.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 2000 - 23/06/2022 15:35:54    2427094

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Replying To kingofclubs:  "The only internal name that has come through yet is Bernard Flynn. Would Bernard do the job for no payment ?"
Imagine its less lightly an internal appointment gets paid, by right manager only entitled to expenses. Hard to belive top managers/coach from outside are not getting paid. With PT development on long finger it will be a difficult sell, so expect an internal appointment and hope for the best.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2257 - 23/06/2022 16:44:28    2427109

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Replying To brian:  "Again great points Joe, might be too late for Donal, is he over 30 now? But you're dead right you need a couple of big lads inside. Morris and Walsh would seem to be the guys for me, maybe Frayne and Lynch could be added into the mix, possibly Luke Mitchell too if he has a good championship campaign. And those players need to be left close to goal, no coming back out the pitch, stay close to goal, that ties up at least 4 player's in the keeper, their markers and 1 extra defender.

Yeah if we could get to that stage of beating the 4 teams in the bottom four places in the league then you're in the promotion hunt every year.Next years league has Dublin, Derry, Kildare, Meath, Clare, Cork , Limerick and Louth. If this current bunch of players has anything about itself they would all be looking to beat those later 4 teams. The other 3 teams would be shots to nothing for me, win any of them, well and good but if not then at least be competitive."
I think Donal Lenihan will be 33 next year. Cannot see him coming back to inter county football.

kingofclubs (Meath) - Posts: 350 - 23/06/2022 17:00:26    2427111

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Replying To kingofclubs:  "I think Donal Lenihan will be 33 next year. Cannot see him coming back to inter county football."
Yeah that was my own thinking alright that he was 30+, so no way you'd ask him to come back in at that point

brian (Meath) - Posts: 2000 - 23/06/2022 17:23:19    2427114

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Replying To Thejoeshow:  "Like it or not Meath we're never a D1 side at any stage in the last ten years before Andy. Meath were never nearly as fit in the last ten years and Andy was not blessed with the forwards or talent others had before him. While we won Vs lesser counties to get there other managers lost to those lesser teams. Go back and watch Meath under mod or Banty near the end and you'll see we came on, not enough and it regressed but any manager coming in will see staying in D2 the minimum and D1 a success and all Ireland series another success. Under previous managers we ended up in D3. Andy went stale and it went backwards but that was after it progressed initially. If we deem his entire reign a failure or he didn't give his best, who in their right mind would take it"
Ok points taken but on reflection there mod 3 years banty 2 andy 6.got a lot more time to really work his mistakes out.but actually got worse.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 503 - 23/06/2022 17:59:43    2427122

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Replying To brian:  "Great posts this morning folks and great to see reasoned and well thought out posts and everyone being respectful of peoples thoughts and opinions. Think all of us here are pulling in the same direction and agree that Andy did what he could and through lack of support and backing this last 18 months or so that he was on a hiding to nothing. This reflected badly on the county board and was done on a public stage which might colour some leading candidates on going forward for the role. Think we're all agitating for better standards from the top level down and that should in turn hopefully drive improved standards with the senior team forward.

I think we need to be realistic in that the next person in might not be the saviour but if they could
1) steady the ship,
2) fix some of the blind spots that Andy had (fitness, S&C, kick outs, tactics, warm ups, free taking),
3) bring us back closer to the top 10 (IMHO we're currently below 16th if you were ranking teams, there's a lot of teams in the Tailteann Cup that would have their way with Meath right now including Cavan, Westmeath, Offaly, Tipp and possibly 1 or 2 more) and
4) have us at a consistent standard, whilst working with the U20 managers McCarthy and O'Bric, bringing through the 2020 and 2021 minors.

By the time those lads are peaking there might be a new manager or set up required to push them on to being a top 6 or so team. The aim needs to be to get back to being a consistent top 6 team when that minor team is coming to it's peak. There's no reason with population and resources available to Meath they can't be performing to a much higher standard and performing at a level at least equal to and possibly above Monaghan, Roscommon, Armagh and Donegal, all of whom would have much smaller populations than we have."
You missed throw ins there lad.lol

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 503 - 23/06/2022 18:01:45    2427123

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Flynn with a coup of brennan on the ticket!

Thejoeshow (Meath) - Posts: 687 - 23/06/2022 18:33:52    2427128

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Replying To kingofclubs:  "The only internal name that has come through yet is Bernard Flynn. Would Bernard do the job for no payment ?"
Technically he is a outside manager. Bernard lives and has lived for many years on the Ardmore road in Mullingar.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 23/06/2022 18:58:20    2427134

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BF has included Robbie Brennan as part of his proposed management team, interesting to see who else might be involved. Paul Mannion speaks highly of his management skills-has a familiar ring to it. This will divide opinion within county, but fair play for at least putting his hand up. Now its wait and see who else shows an interest, in the mean time the whataboutry should keep us going.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2257 - 23/06/2022 20:15:06    2427144

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Replying To seadog54:  "BF has included Robbie Brennan as part of his proposed management team, interesting to see who else might be involved. Paul Mannion speaks highly of his management skills-has a familiar ring to it. This will divide opinion within county, but fair play for at least putting his hand up. Now its wait and see who else shows an interest, in the mean time the whataboutry should keep us going."
Out of curiosity why do you think it divide opinion?

Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 1095 - 24/06/2022 09:42:36    2427164

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Ok points taken but on reflection there mod 3 years banty 2 andy 6.got a lot more time to really work his mistakes out.but actually got worse."
Even the last year at his worst was better than what we saw towards end of Banty or mod, he got time for a reason. Last summer was our best championship result Vs Dublin in nearly a decade.

Also bare in mind last two years of Andy were during covid which was massively disruptive. Not dispute it regressed towards end but still nowhere near the levels we saw with others, no danger of D3 in reality and if anyone was in navan for one of mods last games where two men stood inside the small rectangle and never moved you'll know what I mean. Andy regressed from where we were significantly in 2019/2020 but others never got near the heights either.

Thejoeshow (Meath) - Posts: 687 - 24/06/2022 09:46:28    2427165

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Replying To Blackspot09:  "Out of curiosity why do you think it divide opinion?"
Personally for me he plays a similar type of football to Andy and I do think players were ferociously loyal to Andy in the way Robbie gets his players to. There are similarities to Andy and maybe not the tactical step forward but absolutely fair play to him and BF in having a real go at getting it. I am led to believe Eamon Fitz is top of the wish list in any event but this is unlikely in my view but nice ambition.

Thejoeshow (Meath) - Posts: 687 - 24/06/2022 09:48:32    2427168

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The inclusion of Robbie Brennan puts Bernard Flynn in a strong position to get the job, especially if other strong/high profile management teams aren't interested. If the rest of his management ticket is strong I wouldn't be against Flynn getting the job at this stage.

BigJoe14 (Meath) - Posts: 1021 - 24/06/2022 09:53:29    2427172

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